How to Lead with Purpose and Empathy: Dr. Terry Jones | Degrees of Success™ Podcast | Episode 8

0:00 - Welcome to the Degrees of Success podcast. 0:14 My name is Frida Richards, and I am your host. Today we have the incredible privilege of speaking 0:20 with Dr. Terry Jones, a renowned human resource executive with over 25 years of experience. 0:27 He's a retired veteran who served in the government and nonprofit organizations focusing on diversity, 0:34 equality, and inclusion. He's currently the vice president of Human Resources 0:40 for the United States Institute of Peace. Dr. Jones, thank you so much for joining us. 0:45 - Thank you for having me, Frieda. I appreciate it. - Absolutely. Well, let's just jump right in. We wanna know more about your story and where you came from. 0:52 So tell us about your childhood. What were you like as a kid and where you grew up? - I grew up in Wilmington, Delaware. 0:58 It's that, like my wife says, it's that city that people drive through to get to New York, 1:05 small town, very strong community. And it was, it was, it, 1:11 it was a good, it was a good childhood. It was tough. It was rough sometimes, but, but it was, it was good. - Tell me about what that looked like at home. 1:18 Oh, mom, dad, siblings, - Just mom, just mom, dad left, like when we were very young 1:25 and, you know, we survived, you know, and, and one of the things, I would not be here without the, 1:31 my mother, you know, she still scares me, you know, to this day. But, but she made sure 1:37 that I did not get caught up in all the drama that, that surrounded a young black man in, in my community. 1:44 - Absolutely. Speaking of your mom, I know that she's said a few things that have stuck with you, 1:50 and I imagine there's probably a multitude of things, but have that have stuck with you and, and helped you drive into your career. 1:57 What, what would be a few of those quotes that you think - The one thing that comes to mind immediately is 2:04 there's no such thing as, I can't, she, she told us, because we, we didn't have a lot growing up, 2:11 but she never, she never allowed us to think like we were beneath anyone or, or we were struggling. 2:18 That poor mentality that, that mentality, she never let us do that. And she said, I would rather have you fail than not to try. 2:25 And that has driven me and my sister throughout our lives. - Oh, wow. I would rather you fail than not to try, 2:32 because clearly if you failed, you tried. - Exactly. - That's very good. What's your mom's name? 2:39 - Anne. She goes by Anne. I cannot say her, her, her, her real, her first name on Ann. 2:45 I'm not, you're not getting me in trouble. - I'm not gonna do it. I know you're, I listen, if you're afraid. I know I should be. So, Ms. 2:51 Anne, thank you for the incredible quote. I think I'm gonna keep that with myself as well. I love that. So I imagine your mom was a great influence on 3:00 you throughout your childhood. Who else would you think that was fairly influential to you? 3:05 - It, it went both ways. I had a lot of younger uncles that were role models, 3:12 and then I had people within the community that, that I saw and said, you know, I don't wanna do that, 3:18 or that's what I wanna do when I grow up. So, so it, it was, I took the good and the bad and, 3:23 and shaped my, my, my goals from there. - Who taught you to shape the goals? 3:28 - I, I, I've actually initially myself, you know, 'cause I, I didn't have a lot of, 3:34 because my young, my uncles were younger. Like they, they were in their older teenagers 3:39 or late twenties, so they were still growing up also. So I had to do a lot of it myself. And, and, and I didn't do it right, you know, initially, 3:47 but it was, it was, I I had either do it or, or it wouldn't get done. - What's the right way? - The right way is to 3:54 make sure you are flexible. One of the things that I, I learned early in my career, 4:01 I was, and I'm gonna age myself now, I was involved in that busing when we were bused out the county 4:09 schools or whatever. That was difficult because that, that was the first time I experienced 4:14 racism in my life. And my mom's goal was to have us to get a better education. 4:20 But I told her later, after, after graduating that, that was the worst four years of my life. 4:27 You know? It, it was tough. It was tough. - So during that four years, you experienced your first bout 4:34 of racism as a child. - Yes. - And you expressed that to your mom, that she was, 4:41 she was trying to give you a better opportunity and you just happened, happened to also meet you with some 4:49 unfortunate situations as well. My goodness. And I, I imagine that is a story 4:55 for many people when parents are trying to do better, putting them in a situation of higher 5:01 privilege or accessibility. Do you think that that four years also gave you some resilience and drive 5:07 and maybe one of the reasons that you were one of the best DEI specialist in the game? 5:16 - It, it helped me to, to tell myself that, okay, first of all, don't take this personal 5:22 because you're not, don't let them think you're beneath anyone. Secondly, I don't want anybody else to feel like this. 5:29 I don't care where you come from, you know, and, and we're all here for a reason, 5:34 and I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna put you down because you look different than me. And, and, and I've tried to do that my whole career. 5:41 - That makes sense. Because you have had an expansive career in human resources, specifically working 5:50 and designing opportunities for people that are diverse. 5:56 Can you dive a little bit more into your, your passion and your mission for that? 6:02 - It is, it is, it, it dries from what I mentioned before, that the feeling that I had, you know, that 6:09 because you, you, you have to go. I went home a lot of times and said, I'm not good enough for this. You know, and people, you know, 6:16 and why are people be treating me this way? I just want people to be able to come into wherever they are, regardless of where we meet 6:23 and feel welcome, you know, and, and, and not have people, you know, putting 'em down 6:29 or if, if people are doing it, be able to move beyond that and say, look, this is not going to stop me from, 6:34 from achieving my goals or my dreams in my life. - So you wanna give people the tools to be able 6:41 to navigate regardless of the environment, to still be able to be successful despite the negativity 6:49 that may be going on around them. - Exactly, yeah. Also let people know that don't, also, 6:56 don't use it as a crutch. You know, make sure if, if, if you get turned out for a job 7:02 or whatever, make sure you've done everything you can do from a personal standpoint to make your, 7:07 to make them say it hard to say no to you. That drove me also, and it drove me to get my doctorate degree. 7:14 When I got outta the military, my, my goal was to, I, I want to dictate what I wanna do 7:20 and not the world dictate what I have to do. And I, I got my, 7:26 I got my master's degree while I was in the military, and then I got out, waited seven years, I don't know why. 7:32 And then I went back to school. But, but it drove me out. I was like, I don't want anybody to say you didn't have this, that's why we didn't hire you. 7:40 So if, if you don't get hired, then hey, if there was another candidate, I'm good with that. 7:46 But I didn't wanna leave anything on the table that may distract them or say, you know, if there's a tie breaker, 7:52 well, he didn't have this, he didn't have this, and this person had this. I, I didn't want that to happen to me. - So you are breaking glass ceilings. 7:59 You wanna ensure that you have everything put into place to make sure that you are the ideal candidate. 8:05 And if someone's better than you, Roger that. But you've done absolutely everything in your power 8:10 to ensure that you can open the doors that you want. - Exactly. - And you set other people up for 8:16 that same success as well? - Yes. It's important to give back, you know, and I know as a, 8:24 a older black man, people, younger ones look at me, you know, just like I looked at my uncles when I was growing 8:31 up, you know, and you don't force people, you don't force yourself on people. But if somebody reaches out, take the time to reach back out 8:39 to that person and talk to them. - You were on the exact same page as I am. 8:44 You are clearly a great representation of an African American man doing incredible things. 8:53 Do you believe that representation is important for others to continue to look up to? 8:59 As you said, you have, you said that you're an older black man, you should tell your face, 9:04 you look very young, but I imagine it's those awesome kids 9:09 and grandkids that keep you young, I'm sure, and your beautiful wife. But as you move throughout your career 9:17 and you see younger people, maybe other young African American males, 9:22 what do you think the effect of seeing a older black man in such a prestigious 9:29 position is for them in regards to them learning and growing and looking to achieve 9:36 - That they shouldn't be afraid of hard work and, and failure. Failure helped me, you know, throughout my career 9:44 because I learned from failure. You know, this didn't work out the way i, I wanted to do. I I wanted it to, but I'm gonna try 9:52 and I'm gonna keep on trying. And then when, when they reach out to have a conversation with, this is how I got where I, where I'm, you know, 9:58 don't try to follow this a hundred percent, take a little bit of me, take a little bit of several other people and make it yours. 10:06 And then it may not, it may not exactly happen the way you want it to, but you're gonna end up somewhere and, and, 10:12 and you're gonna do a good job and you're gonna be successful. It's, it's all what we're looking for. My, my faith also drives me, what I, what I 10:19 - Do. Again, something else you and I have in common. You mentioned having one, having faith in 10:27 that being one of your drives, but you've also said your mom taught you about failure. 10:33 If you're not failing, you're not trying. And you mentioned failing and how that's also created. 10:40 Your, your current being like where you're at right now because you've continued to try, possibly fail. 10:46 Can you tell us about some of the failures that helped get you to where you are? - Yeah, it started with the military. 10:52 You know, in the military, you, I was in the Air Force and we have to, you know, 10:58 after a certain grade, you have to take a test and you have to be evaluated to move forward. 11:03 I took that for granted, you know, when I was going for that next higher grade. And when I got my test scores back, my test scores reflected 11:12 that I, I, I didn't, I didn't take it serious. 'cause I thought I was, oh, I'm in here. 11:17 And that was a hard lesson. That was a very hard lesson for me. And, and I sat down with a mentor in the, 11:23 and they said, if you would've did this, you could have got a higher score. 11:28 But I thought I could get around that, you know, and I paid for that. I, I, I, I lost that promotion that year 11:36 because I didn't do what I was supposed to do. That was a tough lesson. Yeah, 11:41 - I can imagine. Especially while in the military. Tell us about that, because clearly your faith 11:47 and your service in the military. Thank you for your service. I'm an army brat. 11:53 My daddy is a marine. My mommy is an E nine. She just retired at 60. 11:59 And my husband is, he was, he was in the Marines as well. So from an army slash Marine brat, 12:08 thank you for your service. - Thank your family. - Thank you. I will, I will tell them. 12:15 Tell us more about your experience in the military and how that has affected your career thus far. 12:21 - The military allows you to advance and, and, and do a lot of things. 12:29 If you take advantage of the opportunity, everything is laid out. 12:34 They tell you, okay, if you want to be an E nine, this is how you decide. You do it. Now, everybody doesn't make E nine. 12:41 We, we know that. But if they prepare, if you prepare yourself for each grade, just imagine 12:48 how marketable you are in the military or outside the military. If, if, if you could, if you do everything you're supposed 12:54 to do, because every, everybody's not gonna get there. But you can walk away from that experience saying, I did everything I could. 13:00 It just wasn't meant to be. And the military helped, helped me. And, and that transition until my, when I got out 13:05 and I said, okay, everything is not meant to be, you're gonna work hard. You're going to, you're gonna go for this, but everything is not gonna work the way you want it 13:12 to learn from those experiences. And you're gonna end up where, where you are supposed to be 13:18 and not al always time where you want to be. I've learned that throughout my career. 13:23 And thinking back on where, 'cause when you try to force the issue, it doesn't always work that way. 13:29 And then I, I'll, I'll get frustrated and upset sometimes, and then wherever I end up, I'll take a, I'll take a breath 13:35 and say, yeah, this is where you're supposed to be. And ended up, you ended up in the right place. 13:41 - So sometimes you just need to take a moment, reevaluate and then recognize that, yeah, this, 13:48 this is where I'm supposed to be. There's meaning and purpose in this space. - Exactly. Yes. - So going from the military 13:56 to a civilian job has to be a, a very interesting transition. Tell me about that and how you had made that decision. 14:04 - It was, I, my wife also served and retired from the Air Force, and she was, 14:13 and she outranked me. Okay. I love it. I love it. 14:19 So moving through that process and then saying, one day, I, I just, I, 14:28 I came home from work and I, I said, you know, I don't want, I wanna do something else now. I just wanna do something. It's time, it's time. 14:36 And, and when I, after making that decision, it took me eight months to actually get out and retire and get out. 14:43 But one day I, I just said, it's time for me to, and I was at the peak, the pinnacle in my career when, 14:48 when I did, when I made that decision. But I just, just, something in me was like, it, it's time for you to do something else now. 14:54 - And so when you made that choice, your wife is still in the military, and I know that you said that she's one 14:59 of your biggest advocates through your doctoral experience. And I imagine through this experience as well, 15:05 what did that look like? - First she thought I was planned. You know, she thought, she thought, oh, he just having a bad day. 15:12 And then she called me the next day because I was actually stationed in Boston, and she was still in DC Oh, wow. 15:19 So that, that factored into it also. And, and then she called me back the next day and I said, I'm, I'm done. 15:25 I said, this is, I, I said, I wanna do, I wanna do something else. And then she told me, she said, 15:31 life is different out the military. You need to understand that. I said, yeah, I got this. 15:37 You know, it's, no, it's no big deal. But it is, it, it's, it's a major deal. 15:42 And we all struggle in some capacity and adjusting to that new life. 15:48 I I I, I make a joke out of it. When I first, when I first got out and people were saying, you know, you dress, 15:55 you know, you dress very well. I, I said, no, I dress very well because for 20 years I could go in my closet 16:02 and pick out with my eyes closed and pick out what I was wearing. Yes. You know, I said, now I'm playing dress up. 16:08 I, I said, no. I said, that's, that's what I'm doing now. - Now that'd be more fun. - Yeah. 16:14 It was just a matter of transitioning. And, and, and just a little, just small things like in this, 16:20 in the, the transit system here. I had never, I had never used a transit system. In the morning, me and my wife would use it to go 16:27 to plays dinner. You know, we would come to DC at night. It's, the transit system is different at night than it is 16:33 during, during commuting time. You know? - Really? How so? Like, - The people, all the people, 16:40 like early in the morning, you know, it was just crazy. And, and, and I went home the first day 16:45 and I was like, I don't wanna do that anymore. And she said, I told you, I told you different. 16:51 And, and little things like that that, that we take for granted because in the military, you're, we, 16:57 we we're in this, you know, closed environment 17:02 and it's, it's, we, you, we take care of each other. But when you step out of that, you no longer are part of that. 17:09 And people struggle with that also. You know, you're, you're, you're in a new world and you have to adjust to the world that you're in now. 17:17 - Absolutely. Because the military could feel like a family. - Yes. - And when you're on base, you're safe. Yes. 17:22 And you get off, it's a little different. - Yes. It's very, yes. - Yeah. Did it take a while for you to find yourself 17:29 or like what it was like outside of your uniform even you do dress absolutely fabulously. 17:37 Did it take a moment to get there, to find like what outfits you wanted to wear? 17:42 - Yes. Initially it was, I used to call 'em. I had, I only had suits for church. 17:49 And then I had to change that because it was a different kind of, it's, I needed business suits and, and different Yeah. 17:56 It, it changes your, it changes my whole, it changed my whole world, you know? And, and, and then you realize that it costs money. 18:05 - Facts. Yeah. - That was a major adjustment. But I, I, I wanted to, I always wanted to work in, in, 18:13 in the business kind of world. And I said, you need to dress where you want to be. 18:20 You know? And, and, and, and, and it, it took a while, you know, it, it takes phases, but, 18:26 and I'm still getting there, but, but I, but I'm, I'm a little better at it now than I was when I first got out. 18:32 - Well, it changes all these trends. - Yes, - Definitely changes. 18:37 Well, you've mentioned your wife. And I know that you said that your family is your, 18:43 your passion, your, your your greatest passion in life. And I couldn't agree with you more. 18:50 Tell me about this incredible woman who has been by your side and your two awesome adult children 18:56 and grandchildren. - And my wife. She's everything. You know, she has been by my side. 19:02 She has been the person, she has been the advisor, both good and negative. 19:07 You know, when she, when I'm off base, I hear it. You know, and when we were in the military, 19:14 it was never a competition. I supported her through her career. She supported me through mine when I, 19:21 because we were both very successful in moving up in ranks. And, and we had actually had a, a conversation about one 19:28 of us will probably have to get out earlier because of the location. And it happened to me. 'cause I went 19:33 to Boston for a couple years. But she has, she has been by my side. 19:39 And, and I, I, I would not be here today without her. And, and I say that without hesitation. She's everything to me. 19:45 - It's so great to have a, a spouse that could support you while doing something so critical 19:51 to your career. And then clearly, like you said, she supported you in the doctoral process as well, that you 19:59 received here at University of Phoenix. - Yes, I did. - So tell me about that journey 20:05 as she's partnering with you, you've got, at the time that you're getting your doctorate, tell us about 20:10 what family, spouse, wife, wife, life balance, and work balance look like to you? 20:18 - One of the first things I did when I decided to, to pursue 20:24 the doctorate degree, I sit down with my family and I said, okay, this is going to take a lot of my time, 20:31 but I'm also always gonna make time for all of you. And this may require me to work, 20:38 like when we are on vacations, because we go on family vacations to have my laptop with me. I took my laptop with me everywhere 20:45 for five years, every single. And, and, and, but I, and, and it, and it's o it's o it's easy to say that, 20:52 but I actually, you have to make yourself do it, you know? And a couple of times on trips, I would tell them, 20:59 I need to do this. I, I need to, I need to do this paper. Or before we, we, we go downtown or whatever. 21:05 And they was like, cool, you know, we'll just go to the pool or whatever. And it worked because we had that conversation. 21:12 The, she was around when, when I, when I got the couple like rejection letters from 21:18 IRB or whatever. And, and, and she was see me sitting in, in the, in the room just saying, I can't do this. 21:24 I can't do this. And she was like, yes, you can, you can do this. You never quit in anything. 21:29 You know, you need to do this because if, if you quit, it's gonna drive you crazy. And I can't deal with that. 21:35 - That's right. Failure's one thing. Quitting is another. - Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. My, my grandchildren were young at the time. 21:44 And, and to be honest with you, I, my, the best papers I wrote were when they were in the house with me running around, running around. 21:52 - Why do you think that is? - Because I, I love having them around me, you know? 21:57 And they would say, they would come up and say, Papa, you doing your homework? And I'm like, yes. And they were like, are we too loud? 22:03 I said, yeah, you are a little loud. Okay, that will last about five minutes. You, but, but, but I got, I just love having them around 22:11 and, and showing them that I'm not just gonna tell you how important education is. 22:17 I'm gonna show you how important it's - Communities. Yet again, another great opportunity 22:23 to show little young children and having a great representation of, 22:29 of a strong man working hard and doing what he, what needs to be done to get that doctorate. 22:35 Because one of the things my mother told me that I tell my children, is that anything worth having, it's worth working for. 22:41 - Yes. - And I tell that to myself in the middle of the night. 'cause I, I too, I'm getting my doctorate in, in management. 22:50 So we'll have a similar degree. I don't have it yet though. I'm in phase two. So these bags are real. 22:57 And I am not alone. There's a lot of really incredible people in my classroom, 23:06 some of which are actually focusing on diversity, inclusion and equality. 23:11 If you were to give myself or any of my classmates any advice 23:18 for what it's like to be a University of Phoenix student in an adult with a full-time job and a family 23:27 and little ones running around, what, what would be your advice for us? - Listen to the, everyone that's tried to help you. 23:35 The, the executive dean on down, our first residency, it was 35 of us, 23:42 and we were in somewhere in, in, in Virginia. 23:48 And the executive dean was there from the School of Advanced Studies at the time. That's what, what was called at the time. 23:55 He saw our faces and we were all terrified. And he came in and said, okay, first of all, I need all 24:00 of you to relax. And then we were like, okay, thank you. And then he said, and then as you go through this program, 24:08 make sure that you stay grounded and even though you have to write scholarly, right? 24:15 So a high school student could understand what you're saying. And that stuck with me 24:21 because he said, people get in this program and they get too wound up and they start writing that you can't even understand what they're saying. 24:29 And as I went through the program and, and with the instructors, that was the best advice 24:34 that I got because, you know, write so I can understand what you're talking about. 24:40 Have that support system like the, it it was five of us that really hung out together, like at the residencies or, 24:47 and stay in touch with that, that little small cohort or however big it has to be, but have that support system. 24:54 There are some outstanding instructors as you, as you well know, that University of Phoenix has, my, 25:01 my academic advisors were good. It was a, it was just a good overall experience for me. 25:07 On, on, on both ends, - I have to agree with you. We do have an excellent faculty. 25:14 I'm biased obviously, but I, I am a student and I've had them come alongside me and challenge me. 25:21 Not, it's not easy at all, but definitely challenge me in, in 25:28 so many different ways. One of the things that I've learned thus far 25:33 that's somewhat surprised me is that during this process, it's been very humbling. 25:41 Not so much because I, I thought I knew a lot, but more so I'm learning about how 25:47 to be an impeccable leader by serving others 25:52 and being passionate and caring in regards to who it is 25:59 that they are learning their patterns of behavior and being able to adjust to those things. 26:06 And for me, that's become really useful for me in my day to day. 26:11 What would you say was a powerful piece of information or a lesson that you took with you 26:18 that you still use today? - To not be afraid to ask for help. 26:24 It's okay, because you're not, but, and, and that's, but that's difficult and hard. 26:29 And it's been hard for me in my life, you know, but you don't know everything. And, and, and when you get in a program, 26:35 a doctorate program, you don't wanna, you know, you're looking like, I don't wanna say anything. I don't know what's going on right now, but I don't wanna say anything because 26:42 I'm supposed to know this. No, you're not. You know, this is new. This is new to you. Hey, I don't know this, could you explain it more? 26:50 Or whatever. Even if you have to do it after class, you know, or ask one of your, one of your, one of your cohorts 26:56 or one of your colleagues and say, Hey, did you understand this? You know, but, but 'cause if you, 27:02 when when you go back home, it's a lonely place when you're by yourself and you're trying to, you know, 27:07 decipher something that you don't know, that you have no clue. And you had an opportunity to ask. One is about that is difficult. And I did, I've done it. 27:14 You know, the pride comes in sometimes, but I, I said, you no, you need to ask. 'cause you don't have a clue right now. 27:21 - Yes. I think that is such incredible advice because isn't it true you get into a room where you expect 27:28 that, oh, all these other people have this great amount of knowledge. I I, I shouldn't ask this question. I I'll come across dumb When the likelihood 27:35 of the them also needing to know the answer to that question is high. - Right. - Secondly, I heard this on another podcast 27:42 that I was listening to, and she said, you are, when you, when you raise your hand, 27:49 you're dumb for five minutes. When you don't, you're dumb forever. 'cause if you don't ask the question, you don't know. 27:56 And it's, it's daring. But the reality is, most of the people in the room 28:02 or online with you have the exact same question. Exactly. Yeah. And you're human. 28:09 I feel like it, it, it breaks that barrier, right? Where everyone could be that much more humble. 28:14 I think that that's really great advice. Excellent advice. So, amongst your vast career, I know you also worked 28:22 for the Department of Defense. I'd love to hear more about that position and how it just continue to cultivate you as a leader. 28:30 - That was my, after the military, the Department of Defense, the, the civilian side of Department of Defense 28:39 was my safety net, you know, because I was not ready to go out to the real world, as they say. 28:45 So I was like, okay, I, I need to, I need to just transfer to the other side of the Department of Defense 28:51 that taught me, I, I love talent acquisition, I love helping people, you know, 28:59 I've always, always loved that thrived in the military. And I just transferred over. Then I got an opportunity to be the chief of staff for one 29:06 of a deputy under Secretary of Defense. I had been, I had been out of the military for seven months 29:13 and she picked me over like more senior people. It, that her, Ms. Bradshaw 29:21 and I, to this day, I still remember her name. She wanted me to call her Patricia, because that's my wife's name. 29:26 I said, no, I'm not calling you that calling you Ms. Bradshaw, I just got outta the military. So I'm, I'm still there. 29:32 And she taught me what, being a, I looked at her and she taught me what a leader was, you know, 29:40 every day she taught me what a leader meant. I seen her interact with people in, in some very bad situations, 29:47 but she never wavered, you know, and then she, I've seen her calm other, I've seen her calm general officers down, other people 29:55 that were outranked her and said, we can do this. She was, she, she was fantastic. 30:01 And we still correspond today because of that. I, I I, I really respect her to this day. 30:09 - So I imagine that you most likely took some of the incredible leadership aspects of, of who 30:17 and what she is and implement them currently today. What would you say that you took from her that is 30:25 working best for you? Now? - It is our hearts. Our, our jobs are hard enough. 30:32 Our, regardless of where you work, we spend upwards of eight to 12 or even longer every day at our jobs. 30:40 And then on top of that, being a, in a supervisory position is added pressure to people. 30:46 But I, I walk away, I always walk away and say, you, you're putting this position for a reason. 30:52 First of all, you need to equip yourself to be in this position because just because you were a good technician does not mean you're 30:58 gonna be a good supervisor or leader. Equip yourself. Take the necessary training. And then if you, if you don't wanna do any of that, 31:09 take care of your people. Take care of your people. And you have to know your people. 31:15 You know, you can't, and, and there's multiple generations in the workforce now 31:22 that are motivated by different things. You have to understand what motivates your people. 31:28 Talk to them, you know, and, and don't talk to 'em about the job all the time to say, how you doing? You know, it's okay to laugh. 31:36 They need to see you as a human being and then understand, okay, we, we have a hard job, 31:43 but I know one person is in this building, has my back, and that's my supervisor. 31:48 That's what, that's what I focus on. Because if, if you take care of your people, your people will go through the fire for you. 31:55 - I know that to be true. I know that to be true. I've had several leaders 32:00 in my life actually support me in a way 32:06 that at the time I honestly felt like I didn't deserve. Like, oh, you, you really just want to be alongside me. 32:15 To, I actually started my doctorate because of my business. 32:22 He was my old boss, Dr. Sandusky. And he has just stayed in my life 32:30 and been such a great force. I called him to tell him, Hey, I think I'm gonna start another master's. 32:35 Like, I have an opportunity with the University of Phoenix. And I, and I think I could, I think I'll just, I think I'm gonna do another master's. 32:40 Maybe I'll do it in psychology. I'm always interested in how the brain works and how, how, you know, people converse. 32:46 And he said, well, why would you do that? And I was like, well, I mean, the only other option would be to get a doctorate. 32:53 But I mean, I'm not a business leader is exactly what I said to him. And you would've thought that I called his dog ugly 33:01 because he Exactly, he was so upset. 33:07 What are you speaking about? Absolutely not. You've been a leader since I've met you. And he went, he went on and on. 33:14 When I tell you that at the end of that call, I finished that application and was excited to report 33:21 to him my very first class, my very first grade. And he's, he's continued to be a, 33:28 a driving force in my life. And I, mentors are so important 33:34 because they, one, remind you who you are and two, remind you of your capabilities 33:41 in a time in which you feel like I may not be able to do this right. 33:47 And remind you how capable you are. So as a leader, you're doing that 33:53 for the people who serve you and work with you. And I could tell you, as someone 33:59 who has someone like you in my life, it is so impactful 34:05 overall over my whole life, over my career. If it wasn't for the support of my family, obviously, 34:12 but also people who went out of their way right. To believe in me or even to do what your academic advisor did, 34:20 which is simply repeat back to them what I've repeated to them, just how powerful it is to, 34:27 to hear it back and to, to get that drive to do it, and to say like, Nope, you know what? 34:33 You're right. I could do it. And get back on the horse to do that. So thank you for being his leader 34:38 and teaching others to do the same. Because, because of the boss and the leader he is in my life. 34:44 I wanna be a good leader. I wanna do that for other people the way that he's done that for me. 34:49 And I'm confident that your people are feeling the exact same way. Yeah. You're, you're designing and creating other leaders. 34:57 - Yeah. One of the first conversations I have with anybody who joins my team, and this throws people off is, 35:04 and it's normally the first or second meeting with, I'd say, what do you want to do next? And they're like, what are you fir me? 35:10 I said, no, I hired you to do your job here. Now what do you wanna do after this? So I can help you get there? 35:17 That's what, and, and, and that my military mentors taught me that mentality, you know, because we always talked about 35:24 what was ahead in the military. Okay, how do I get you there, Terry? How can I help you get there? And, and I've and I've I've carried that in my career. 35:31 - Well, you clearly carried a lot of things. For instance, you are carrying two bronze medals apparently 35:38 for how incredible you are in this particular division in human resources with DEI 35:47 and driving a force for other diverse people to move up in leadership. 35:55 Tell me about how you, how you got there. How did we get to this incredible achievement and what it means to you? 36:01 - I'll start back when, when I mentioned about my high school years, there was a time where I did not like people 36:06 who didn't look like me because of what I went through, went in the military, understood that, you know, 36:13 people weren't bad. And, and, and there's some people that really cared about you that did not look like you 36:21 and took and took care of me. And then, and then I, I just kind of always said, I don't want people 36:27 and from other spirits in, in my lifetime, you know, dealing with different things. 36:33 I just said, I don't want people to feel like this. You know, because it makes you feel less 36:39 of a person sometimes. And anything I can do to prevent that 36:45 or mitigate it, I will do. You know? And, and that is having a difficult conversations. 36:50 One of the things that we did at the Environmental Protection Agency during, during the George Floyd 36:56 and all the civil unrest is we had listening sessions and me and, and, and a 37:02 and a, we had a co I was a co-facilitator. And those were difficult conversations, but it allowed our people to talk to each other. 37:11 And, and that when, when we started to implement different DEIA practices 37:17 and procedures, it was more of an acceptance of it because everybody had a voice. 37:25 And then, but you also have to realize that everybody is not in support of it. 37:32 So what, what you do has to make sense. It has to be sustainable and not always reactive on, on certain things. 37:39 'cause reactive changes don't, don't last. And that's one of the things, in my opinion that we did 37:47 during the civil unrest, is we reacted to a lot of things and we put things in place that are sustainable. 37:53 Now, as you mentioned, the, the DIA program managers or advisors 38:01 or whatever, they're going away because a lot of 'em didn't even know what they were doing. 38:06 'cause they weren't, it wasn't established correctly. There's a place for that. But it has to be done correctly. 38:14 And, and everybody understands. And, and, and anybody can, should be able to walk into a DIA office and say, can I talk to you? 38:22 That's what it's for. Inclusion means everybody. 38:27 And, and that, that's where I struggle with this, what we're going through now in this country, you know, serving this country and, 38:34 and being one of those people who say, look, this country has not always been nice to me, but I wake up every day 38:41 and say, I'm gonna be a better person. And, and I'm gonna give you a chance regardless of who, where you come from or what you look like. 38:48 And, and, and I taught, I taught my, my oldest son that I taught. I'm teaching my grandsons that 38:53 because I want this to continue throughout my family. And I'm pretty sure - It'll, I'm confident that it will, your, 38:59 your grandchildren and and your son are definitely being led and taught by the right one to be able to create 39:05 that environment. How old is your son? - He is in his late thirties now. 39:12 - Oh, okay. Wow. Okay. 39:18 That took me by surprise. I'll not fit to you at all. That my goodness. I need to know your skincare routine. 39:26 Feel free when we jump offline. Let's, let's talk about that. It's - My mom. It's my mom. 39:32 - It's your mom. What, what does she teach you? What's the trick? - It is just good genes, you know? 39:39 'cause she's the same way. My sister also. Yeah. - Oh my goodness. All right. Well, I'll just keep my fingers crossed then. 39:48 I have the opportunity to age as gracefully. So your, your son, what does he do? 39:55 - He is, he works for the Department of Veteran Affairs. He was also in the military. He, he, he spent a con and my, my daughter also served also. 40:02 So we all served in the military. And, and, and they didn't do it because of me, 40:08 because I, when, when they were growing up, I never mentioned the military to them, but they, in the end when they got out, they said, 40:14 we saw you and wanted, you wanted to be like you. So that's why we decided to, to join the military, which, 40:22 which was like the ultimate compliment. - Yeah. I, that is, 40:28 that is definitely the ultimate compliment. The day that my, my little 7-year-old or 2-year-old grow up 40:35 and say, mom, we watched you and you did it. Right? Yeah. So therefore we're attempting to 40:42 - Exactly - Do it like you did. I mean, what's better than that? Right. 40:48 No money, nothing else. - And just add one, one thing when they say that is, I want you to be better than me. 40:53 - Mm. - That's what I tell my grandchildren. I want you to be better than me. - Yes. Yes. I want you to be better than me. 41:01 Oh, absolutely. So your, your daughter is also in the military still? 41:07 - No, she was, they, they both served four, eight years, you know, eight years a piece. 41:13 And, and then they decided to get out and both of 'em work. One works down in North Carolina with the army. 41:21 And then my, my son works inion affairs. So, so we're kind of a, we love, love to serve. 41:27 - Well, you're still serving, you're serving those again, that are disserved. 41:33 Unfortunately, as of now. What it's getting better. Those that are in, 41:40 that are diverse in America. I did hear you say DAI, what's the difference 41:47 between DEI and DAI? - We, we at DEIA, we at accessibility, 41:54 because sometimes individuals with disabilities get left out. And, and, and I, and I don't want them, 41:59 and I don't want that to happen within my organization. As long as I'm the vice president of HR here, it's all inclusive. 42:05 - DEIA. Yeah. - Yeah. Thank you. DEIA. - Okay. Diversity. - I just want to Inclusion. 42:11 And, and and accessibility. - And - Accessibility. - It should always have the a i. Yes. 42:20 Yes. That's, that is powerful because the, those that 42:27 need have accessibility needs don't necessarily fall into the other three categories. - Yep, exactly. 42:34 - It makes great sense. So let's dive into the fact that you are currently at, you were the Vice president 42:39 of Human Resources at the United States Institute of Peace. 42:45 Tell me about what your day-to-day looks like, what it is that you do, and how you are a leader all the way as a, 42:54 a vice president of human resources and how that, how you're meeting and guiding your staff. 43:02 - It, it's important for us as the HR team here, which I'm fortunate enough to, to lead at this time, is 43:09 to make sure that our staff have a very important job. You know, because in instead of peace, there's a lot 43:16 of things going on right now, you know, around the world that, that we're involved in. But to make sure our staff walk in this building and, 43:22 and don't, and can focus on their jobs and not their, anything HR related, you know, 43:28 if you're worried about your pay, your benefits or something like that, you're not focused on the, on the mission that we hired you for. 43:35 So that's, that's the mandate I gave to my team. I give my team, I empower them to do, 43:40 I have some very talented people, very talented. I give them the, the authority to do what they have to do. 43:46 And, and I tell 'em all the time, y'all make me look good, but you know, I support you. I got you. But I, I'm not the face of this, you know, they, 43:55 my name is, is at the top, but all of you are hr, you know, and I want you to, I want you to do what you have 44:02 to do and, and lead. 'cause one of you should ultimately replace me. - So you're encouraging your staff. 44:08 One, you remind 'em about how talented they are. Two, you're ensuring that they don't have to worry about Marie remedial things. 44:16 And then three, you're setting them up for success to quite literally replace you in your current position. 44:25 That must truly drive your staff to serve the, the people at the institution. 44:32 And then also you, so well, how, how have you seen your leadership skills 44:38 benefit the institution and yourself - Being the first minority and male? 44:47 You know, in this position? That's a, a win right there because, 44:53 and I actually got hired during the heightened civil unrest. So that was a plus for the institute. 45:01 I don't think, it wasn't a purpose. Like, like I mentioned, my faith. 45:06 It just happened because I wasn't even looking for this job. And then being able to do my job and, 45:13 and also understand the, the ramifications. If I don't do my job, 45:19 because I want to continue to open the door for everybody, including, including people who look like me. 45:25 You know, that that's one of, that's one of the, the, the, the jobs that I have, you know, and continue to do that. 45:30 So other people won't get turned away if I mess up. 45:36 And, and that's a lot of pressure sometimes, but you get put in positions for a reason. 45:42 And, and, and I know that's one of the reasons I'm in this position. - Well, thank you for being the one 45:48 to break the glass ceiling there, because I heard you say that you were one of the first minorities 45:54 and male to take over this position. - Yes. - Has, has 46:01 that been a great shift in the environment in regards to you being a minority and a male? 46:08 Or do you think that it's due to the shift in the leadership or both? Both. 46:15 - Both. It was, it's, it's been both, you know, because I am, you know, when I have to be, I'm 46:21 that HR person that people don't like to see, you know? But, but I really like being HR person that people come to, 46:28 you know, and it, it's, it's, HR is hard 46:34 to be, to be in because you can do 99 things right? And then a hundred thing you do wrong. That's all I think people remember, 46:40 - Right? So you - Have, you have to be tough to work in this, in this business. But being here 46:45 and just showing people that we're, we're, we're strategic partners. We're not your enemy 46:51 and we're here to help you in any way we can. So you're successful in your job. - I imagine that is a part of what led you 46:59 to receiving these bronze medals. Tell me more about that achievement. 47:04 - They were both surprises because I, I don't, I don't do things for recognition. 47:10 I really don't. Like, you know, in the military we could get awards or whatever. 47:17 I mean, it was, it was nice to be recognized, but I, I don't do things for that. 47:22 I, I do things in, in my life to see people succeed. And then if they succeed, I succeed. 47:29 The bronze medals came, you know, I accepted 'em. Both, both of 'em were for, for different DEIA programs. 47:36 And they were truly surprised as both of 'em were, you know, because the work we're doing is not about being a, 47:42 being recognized. It's about making things better for the people we support. We support. 47:48 - Well, I admire hu your humility. I will say that if 47:55 you've received these two bronze medals for your incredible accomplishments, but you don't do it for that, tell me what you do. 48:03 Do it for. Gimme an example of something that you are proud of. You are proud of what achievement you are proud of. 48:10 And how, I imagine it was out of servant leadership as opposed to wanting 48:18 to be honored with the medal - Disposition. Because it happened. 48:26 People sought, they came, they sought me out, you know, like an executive recruiter, you know, contacted me. 48:33 I, and it actually happened. True story. It was Friday afternoon, I was actually signing off 48:39 'cause we were all still teleworking then. And he reached out to me on LinkedIn 48:44 and said, are you interested in this position? I was like, first of all, dude, it's, it's four o'clock on, 48:49 five o'clock on a Friday. I said, I said, yeah, I, I I I'll talk to you on Monday. 48:56 And then I, and I reached out on to him Monday. And normally I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that. 49:02 So I reached out to him and then we started talking and, and it all fell into place. 49:08 And that's when I knew I was, I'm supposed to be here. And then coming in the height period of the, 49:13 the civil unrest and having the, the institute had just went through a 49:19 external review and have and put, and that was the first information I got when I got here. 49:26 You know, we need you to work on this. I said, I got it. You know, this is not gonna be easy. Talk to different, the different communities within the 49:33 organization and realize, okay, you, you have a lot of work ahead of you, but you're, you're here for a reason. 49:39 So, you know, buckle down and get this done. And, and we're still working on it today. You know, but it, it, it's, my goal is any place I work is, 49:48 is to make it a little better than it was before I walked in the door. And, and I think I'm achieving that. We, we'll see, you know, but, 49:54 but I wanna assess it until I leave, you know, because it is not about that. It's about just coming in, making sure people have 50:00 what they need to do their jobs here, - Giving it all you got while you're there. - Yes. - So I heard you say 50:07 that you were hired in the midst of this civil unrest and given the assignment to dive straight in. 50:17 Give me an example of that. Tell me more. What, what was that assignment? Assignment and what did it look like for you to dive in, 50:25 in the middle of such a, a hard and tense time 50:32 - To basically let people know that you have a champion now, 50:37 but don't, but we're not gonna make, you know, rash and, and decisions that aren't sustainable. 50:43 We're, we're gonna work through this. We're gonna have conversations that aren't, that, that, that aren't easy. 50:49 Everybody's not gonna like the conversations. Also, everybody's not gonna like the outcome of the conversations. 50:54 But you have to remember, I'm here to, I'm here to, to support everybody and not just one community. 51:03 Everybody will have a voice and we will walk away implementing 51:11 procedures, processes, initiative that is the best for this organization. Because we wouldn't be here without this 51:17 organization, this institute. So, but we also know how important the people are in this institute. 51:24 And everybody needs to have a voice in some capacity. 51:30 - You said that we wouldn't be here without this institution. Tell us what exactly the Institution 51:40 of Peace is designed to do and what it does for, for us currently, 51:46 - It, it we're, the mission is to, 'cause some people get us confused with the State Department 51:54 or the Agency of International Development. We're working with the them as partners to make sure 52:02 we could come to the table. 'cause we're non-partisan to come to the table and offer solutions. 52:08 'cause people don't think of us as working for the administration or, you know, whatever. 52:13 We, we are a go, a congressionally funded organization, but we have a mandate to be not partisan. 52:20 So we can, we can be at the table sometimes where, where the state department can't, or U-S-A-I-D cannot. 52:27 That's our niche, you know? And, and, and we're there to bro, to, to try to broker peace. 52:33 You know, we're gonna listen to both sides and, and let's, let's have a conversation. And then also understand when peace may not happen 52:40 and be able to, to articulate that and say, you know, but how close can we come? 52:46 And you know, as you can see by the world today, we we're gainfully employed. 52:56 - That in itself is a win. It definitely is a win. What are you most passionate about just at your job? 53:03 Clearly it's in regards to making sure that we're implementing peace 53:08 and keeping that consistent in America for all of the citizens. What, what would you say gets you up out of bed 53:15 and excited to be at work? - Consistency. And this is a military term standardization. 53:23 So you put processes and procedures in that people understand. And so you're not all over the place. 53:29 You know, one, one thing about hr, you can't be all over the place. You know, people may not like the policies and procedures, 53:35 but they're there for a reason. And then we sit down and, and, and, and talk to people, this is why we do this. 53:41 If a person asks a question and we say, no, we can't do that. We should be able to switch over 53:46 and say, this is why we can't do that, but we, we can help you with this. 53:52 And then sometimes it's, it's, it's a, it's a no, you know? And then, but we explain why it's a no, 53:58 this is why we can't do this. Yeah. That, that's all I try to do. 54:03 - So what's next? Once your employees that you're training up to take your position, 54:09 you have this impeccable career in hr also helping those in diversity and accessibility, quality and inclusion. 54:18 What's up next for you? Professionally and personally? - Professionally, A few years from now, this may be it. 54:26 You know, I, I never know. This was, this was what was my goal. 54:31 To be a vice president of an organization as HR person, I've achieved that. 54:38 But you never know, you know, sometimes somebody could come with another challenge, you know, a bigger organization or something that, that I'm passionate about. 54:47 My, my family, my, my, my family is, is number one in my life. 54:54 Well, for, no, let me be honest, God is number one in my life. My, my family on this earth is number one in my life. 55:02 And making sure they have what they need, I'm there to help them, support them. 55:08 And then my friends, colleagues all come second. But I just, you know, once I got that straight in my life, 55:15 my life became a lot simpler. - Simpler. Well, you are a leader at the United States 55:22 Institute of Peace, attaining your goal as a vice president. 55:27 I love that that was your goal and that you have it. So congratulations on that. 55:32 You're a leader, clearly at home. As your children are following in your footsteps, being servant leaders as well, 55:39 you have an incredible wife continuing to support you and your incredible children and grandchildren. 55:46 So you were clearly doing something right. Dr. Jones, thank you. 55:51 Before I let you go, I wanna make sure that you have the opportunity to say anything it is 55:57 that you wanna make sure you share with this audience. So the floor is yours. What would you like to share with anyone who's interested possibly in following 56:05 your incredible path? - For me, we often make things 56:11 very complicated in our lives. And I realize I can only manage 56:17 and control one thing is myself. And if I do that, just imagine 56:23 how better this world would be if we would just say, okay, I need to focus on myself and make myself better, you know, 56:29 and, and not worry about the other person, my next door neighbor or whatever. If they need my help, I, I'm there, 56:35 but I need to focus on myself first and be the best person I can be. And, and, and then work from there. 56:42 - What excellent advice. We can only control ourselves. We can't control how other people respond 56:49 or how other people think, but we can control what we say, how we move, how we think. 56:54 - Exactly. - And that's the precipice, the catalyst for, for all great things. 56:59 With that excellent advice, we are gonna move over to rapid fire questions. Okay. So these are just some fun, quick questions 57:07 so we can get to learn a little bit more about you. First things, first book that changed your life 57:14 - To be candid. The Bible. The Bible. - That's a good one. Early bird or night owl? 57:23 - Early bird. - Early bird. Great. Go-to productivity hack. 57:30 - That's a good one. I, I would say my wife. 57:37 - She keeps you productive. - Yes. - Best advice you've ever received? 57:45 - I was in the military and a person told me very successful in the job I was in, but he told me, he said, 57:51 but I stayed in one location. He told me, nobody knows you outside this area spread out 57:58 and, and, and let other people see what you do. And, and that's what I've done. 58:03 - And that's been beneficial for you in your career? - Yes. - What is your go-to karaoke song? 58:12 - DMX. 58:18 - Listen, Dr. Jones, I didn't know you and I had so much in common. Earl is one of my faves. Which song are you talking about? 58:27 - The, what is that one? And I, I just played it the other day too. 58:33 I can't think of the name, but it is the Rough Rider one. What? - Oh, the anthem? - Yeah, the anthem. The anthem, yes. 58:40 - Do do do do do do do. 58:45 That one's gotten me through plenty of gym sessions. - Yes. - Oh my goodness. 58:52 And lastly, your personal motto - Is always try to be a good person. 59:04 Always try to be a good person regardless of what happens. Always try to find some good out, out of what, 59:10 what's happened, you know, regardless of what it's, 'cause you can always do that. It may be limited, 59:16 but you can say, you know, I learned this, or whatever, or this, you know, gotta find a positive thing to, 59:22 to walk away with because if you don't it, it will bother you. Always be positive. 59:29 - Well, I am positive that this has been one of my absolute favorite interviews. It has been so incredible learning about 59:36 you and your journey. Is there anything that you wanna say that has not been said that you wanted to share? 59:42 - I thank you for the time, taking the time to do this. It is a pleasure. 59:48 And I also wanna, I wanna thank my, which always be my, my, my University of Phoenix family. 59:54 I would not be here in this position with, without that. The people that were involved. It's been, I graduated five years ago, 1:00:01 but I still mention them every time I talk about my, my journey is, is my UUPX family. 1:00:07 And I appreciate all of you. - Well, we appreciate you. I am like your family, like your children, 1:00:16 like your grandchildren, and like those that work with you, following in your footsteps, heading to 1:00:22 that doctorate of management. And I will be taken in these tips. So thank you so much for just being so candid and, 1:00:30 and sharing so many great things with us to help us strive forward. Just and hearing your remarkable journey has just been 1:00:37 so incredible. So thank you for that. - My pleasure. - That brings us to the end 1:00:43 of today's episode of Degrees of Success. Don't forget to subscribe and like, and comment 1:00:50 and all the good things. If they wanna catch up with you though, Dr. Jones, where would they do that? 1:00:55 - LinkedIn. Very common name. Terry Jones at, it'll pop up. I respond. I may not respond at next day, 1:01:01 but if they have a question or whatever, I will respond. - Incredible. He's even willing to serve you when he hasn't met you. 1:01:06 So take advantage, Dr. Terry Jones. Again, absolutely incredible. 1:01:12 Thank you so much for joining Degrees of Success. I've been your host, Frida Richards, 1:01:18 and I'm reminding you that your next chapter just might be your best. Have a great one. Bye.